“Vatican II ended in 1965, or 47 years ago (it started 50 years ago). Since it takes at least 7-9 years (after high school) to become a priest, the earliest someone could be ordained is at age 25. So, anyone who was ordained a priest during the years of Vatican II would be in his mid- to late 70’s by now. As of today, the average age of the 115 cardinal electors planning to enter the conclave is only 71 years, 10 months. Not sure that “most were ordained before V II”
I vaguely recall reading, 8 years ago, that Joseph Ratzinger was one of only three cardinals of voting age who had been elevated to cardinal by Pope Paul VI (and one of those three did not participate in the 2005 conclave). This time around, *all* of the cardinals of voting age were appointed by either John Paul II (42%) or Benedict XVI (58%). FROM a CAF post 03/09/2013
Thee Papal Concave: How does it work?
First a question. WHY does the Pope wear “White?”
Because The Pope represents Christ and HIS One Church which cannot sin. This does not mean that the Pope cannot; only that the God and Church he represents cannot.
How a Pope Is Elected “For 900 years, electing a pope has been the prerogative of the College of Cardinals meeting in conclave
. The cardinals meet in Rome 15 to 20 days after the death of a pope and pick a successor from among themselves in secret balloting. Pope John Paul II [RE]- wrote the rules for electing his successor.”
Pope Benedict XVI Resigns LEADS to a New Election of Pope
Here is the Process:
Papal Intererregnum Definition of INTERREGNUM
1:: the time during which a throne is vacant between two successive reigns or regimes
2: : a period during which the normal functions of government or control are suspended
3: : a lapse or pause in a continuous series
“The period between the death or resignation of a Pope and the election of his successor, when the See of Peter is vacant, is called the Interregnum. This Latin term means between the reign (of one Pope and another). It is a period governed by papal law, which admits of no changes to Church governance, or to the spiritual or material patrimony of St. Peter, save the election of his successor.”
When a Pope Dies [AND OR retires: unusual but was done also about 600 years ago]
Regardless of the circumstances, when a Pope dies certain procedures specified in Church law, specifically the Apostolic Constitution Universi Dominici Gregis, must be followed. First among these is the certification that he is truly dead. This task falls to the Camerlengo [cam·er·len·go: noun \ˌka-mər-‘leŋ-(ˌ)gō\ : a cardinal who heads the
Holy Roman Church.] …I believe this is the Churches “Sectary of State” who is “number #2. To the Pope…PJM]
In the presence of the Master of Papal Liturgical Ceremonies, the Cleric Prelates of the Apostolic Camera, and the Secretary and the Chancellor of the Apostolic Camera[the treasury department of the papal curia ] the Camerlengo ascertains that the Pope is dead. Naturally, this could require the assistance of medical personnel.
In the presence of the Master of Papal Liturgical Ceremonies, the Cleric Prelates of the Apostolic Camera, and the Secretary and the Chancellor of the Apostolic Camera, the Camerlengo ascertains that the Pope is dead. Naturally, this could require the assistance of medical personnel. Having made this determination, the Chancellor of the Apostolic Camera draws up the official death certificate. The Camerlengo then seals the Pope’s bedroom and study. Its unsealing and the disposition of its contents must wait the election of his successor. If the deceased Pope has left a will naming an executor for his personal belongings, the executor is responsible for faithfully carrying out the will, and for giving an account of his service to the new Pope.
Having certified that the Pope is dead, [OR abdicated] the Camerlengo notifies the Archpriest of the Vatican Basilica, and the Cardinal Vicar of the Diocese of Rome. It is the Cardinal Vicar who publicly announces to the City of Rome that its Bishop has died. Between the Camerlengo and the Prefect of the Papal Household, the Dean of the College of Cardinals must be informed. The Dean, in turn, officially notifies the other Cardinals, and calls them to Rome. He also notifies the diplomatic corps accredited to the Holy See, and the Heads of State of the various nations. The Camerlengo must must also take custody of the Apostolic Palaces of the Vatican, the Lateran Palace and Castel Gondolpho, that is, the various personal quarters of the Pope.
After the Pope’s body has been properly prepared it is taken to the Sistine Chapel for the private veneration of the Papal Household and the Cardinals. Afterwards it is taken to the Patriarchal Basilica of the Vatican, St. Peter’s, where it will lie in state
An official mourning period of nine days, called the Novendiales, begins when a Pope dies. The day of death is counted as the first day of this period. On each of these nine days the Mass of each Cardinal must be a funeral rite for the Pope.
Indeed, the Missal provides a Mass formula “For a Deceased Pope” which can be used by any priest during this time, if the liturgical season permits.
Prior to his burial, and following private rites in the Sistine Chapel, the Pope is laid in state in St. Peter’s Basilica, permitting the faithful to pay their respects. Between the fourth and sixth day after his death (that is, on the 5th, 6th or 7th day of the mourning period) a Solemn Funeral is celebrated in St. Peter’s Basilica by the Dean of the College of Cardinals, with the other Cardinals. The deceased Pope is then buried, most likely in the crypt of St. Peter’s. The mourning period. then continues until the nine days are completed.
The days after the funeral and before the Conclave begins offers the cardinals an opportunity to discuss the state of the Church. They may not do so in a manner which constitutes politicking or electioneering for office or for votes.
“The Cardinal electors shall … abstain from any form of pact, agreement, promise or other commitment of any kind which could oblige them to give or deny their vote to a person or persons” (UDG 81)
Nor may the Cardinals, “enter into any stipulations, committing themselves of common accord to a certain course of action should one of them be elevated to the Pontificate” (UDG 82).
Such promises would, in fact, be null and void (ibid). [— used in formal writing to indicate that a reference is from the same source as a previous reference ◊Ibid is an abbreviation of the Latin word “ibidem,” which means “in the same place.”]
There may, however, be “during the period in which the See is vacant, the exchange of views concerning the election” (UDG 81)
If despite the solemn law of the Church, and the penalty of automatic excommunication for selling or trading votes, the validity of the election itself shall not be in doubt. Universi Dominici Gregis states,
79. If—God forbid—in the election of the Roman Pontiff the crime of simony were to be perpetrated, I decree and declare that all those guilty thereof shall incur excommunication latae sententiae. At the same time I remove the nullity or invalidity of the same simoniacal provision, [Definition.. One WHO “
engages in: the buying or selling of a church office or ecclesiastical preferment] in order that—as was already established by my Predecessors—the validity of the election of the Roman Pontiff may not for this reason be challenged.
The day on which the Conclave begins is ordinarily to be the fifteenth day after the death of a Pope, the 16th day of the Interregnum. [LESS time is permissible in the case at hand of Abdication] However, the College of Cardinals is given the faculty by Universi Dominici Gregis to defer its beginning “for serious reasons” up to the 20th day after death (21st day of the Vacancy). It must begin on or before that day.
On the morning of the first day on which the Conclave is to begin, the Cardinal Electors gather in St. Peter’s Basilica, or another place as may be determined by the College, to celebrate a Votive Mass for the Election of the Pope.
In the afternoon they gather in the Pauline Chapel of the Apostolic Palace. Invoking the assistance of the Holy Spirit with the Veni Creator Spiritu, they process to the Sistine Chapel. There they take a solemn oath to observe the prescriptions of the law governing the election, to observe the secrecy obliged, to not assist any secular power which may try to influence the election. The also swear that if elected they will faithfully carry out the Petrine Office, and protect the spiritual and temporal rights of the Holy See.
After the last Cardinal Elector has taken the oath,
the Master of Papal Liturgical Ceremonies gives the order Extra omnes, commanding everyone not authorized to remain in the Conclave to leave the Chapel. Besides the Electors, only the Master of Papal Liturgical Ceremonies and the ecclesiastic chosen beforehand to give a meditation to the Cardinals on the seriousness of their duties, remains. When the meditation has been concluded, both of these men depart the Sistine Chapel.
After the Cardinals recite prayers provided in the proper Ordo for the Conclave, the Cardinal Dean inquiries if any Electors have questions concerning the norms and procedures. Once these have been clarified, by a majority decision of the Cardinals the election can proceed
Only the Cardinal Electors may remain in the Sistine Chapel during the actual voting,
which by law is from after the ballots have been distributed until after they have been tabulated and checked. Outside of the time of actual voting, the Secretary of the College, the Master of Papal Liturgical Ceremonies and the 2 Masters of Ceremonies are present to assist the Conclave.
On this first day of the Conclave, only one ballot is permitted. On the other days of the Conclave, two ballots are permitted in the morning session and two are permitted in the afternoon session.
Only the Cardinal Electors may remain in the Sistine Chapel during the actual voting, which by law is from after the ballots have been distributed until after they have been tabulated and checked. Outside of the time of actual voting, the Secretary of the College, the Master of Papal Liturgical Ceremonies and the 2 Masters of Ceremonies are present to assist the Conclave.
On this first day of the Conclave, only one ballot is permitted. On the other days of the Conclave, two ballots are permitted in the morning session and two are permitted in the afternoon session.
During the Pre-Scrutiny the ballots are prepared and distributed, and, 9 Electors are chosen by lot to serve as 3 Scrutineers, 3 Infirmarii and 3 Revisers.
The Scrutineers are three Cardinal Electors chosen by lot to gather and count the ballots.
They stand at the altar as the Electors come up individually to deposit their votes. One of them also collects the votes of those present who are not physically able to come up to the altar. Afterwards, sitting at a table in front of the altar they tabulate the ballots to determine if an election has occurred.
The Infirmarii are three Cardinal Electors chosen by lot to take ballots to Electors who although within the enclosure of the Conclave are too sick to be present in the Sistine Chapel.
They take with them a locked box which, having been shown to the other Electors to be empty, receives the votes of the infirm. They return it unopened to the Scrutineers.
The Revisers are 3 Cardinal Electors chosen by lot to check the ballot count and the notes of the Scrutineers to determine if the tabulation of the ballots was carried out exactly and faithfully.
After all ballots are in, including those brought from the sick by the Infirmarii, the 1st Scrutineer shakes the receptacle several times to mix the ballots. Then the 3rd Scrutineer counts them, placing them in a second, empty, receptacle. If the number of ballots does not equal the number of electors, they are burned, and a second vote taken immediately. Otherwise, the Scrutineers proceed to tabulate the vote.
Sitting at a table in front of the altar, the 1st Scrutineer silently reads the name on a ballot, passes it to the 2nd Scrutineer who does likewise, and then passes it to the 3rd Scrutineer, who reads the name aloud and then writes it down. Each Elector also writes it down on a sheet provided for this purpose. The ballot is then pierced with a needle through the word eligo (I elect) and placed on a thread for security.
When all ballots have been read the ends of the thread are tied in a knot and the ballots are placed in a receptacle on one end of the table.
The Scrutineers tabulate the vote count they recorded by individuals receiving votes. They do this on a separate sheet of paper from that on which the vote count was first made. The Revisers then verify the results.
In the case of difficulty electing, understood as three days of voting without an election, voting is to be suspending for up to, but not exceeding, one full day, to allow prayer and discussion. Voting is then resumed for seven ballots. Such suspensions followed by seven ballots may occur three times (UDG 74).
After the third round of seven ballots the provisions of paragraph 75 may be invoked by an absolute majority vote of the Electors. This would allow for election by an absolute majority, instead of two-thirds, or, voting between the two top vote recipients of a previous ballot with election by an absolute majority.
Apostolic Constitution Universi Dominici Gregis
74. In the event that the Cardinal electors find it difficult to agree on the person to be elected, after balloting has been carried out for three days in the form described above (in Nos. 62ff) without result voting is to be suspended for a maximum of one day in order to allow a pause for prayer, informal discussion among the voters, and a brief spiritual exhortation given by the senior Cardinal in the Order of Deacons. Voting is then resumed in the usual manner, and after seven ballots, if the election has not taken place, there is another pause for prayer, discussion and an exhortation given by the senior Cardinal in the Order of Priests. Another series of seven ballots is then held and, if there has still been no election, this is followed by a further pause for prayer, discussion and an exhortation given by the senior Cardinal in the Order of Bishops. Voting is then resumed in the usual manner and, unless the election occurs, it is to continue for seven ballots.
75. If the balloting does not result in an election even after the provisions of No. 74 have been fulfilled, the Cardinal electors shall be invited by the Camerlengo to express an opinion about the manner of proceeding. The election will then proceed in accordance with what the absolute majority of the electors decides.
Nevertheless, there can be no waiving of the requirement that a valid election takes place only by an absolute majority of the votes or else by voting only on the two names which in the ballot immediately preceding have received the greatest number of votes; also in this second case only an absolute majority is required.
76. Should the election take place in a way other than that prescribed in the present Constitution, or should the conditions laid down here not be observed, the election is for this very reason null and void, without any need for a declaration on the matter; consequently, it confers no right on the one elected.
When the Scrutineers have tabulated the results, and the Revisers have verified them, they are announced. A super majority of two-thirds of those actually voting is required to elect, unless the special provisions for a difficult election have been invoked.
[IF and When] No Election
If less than two-thirds of the votes have been cast for the same person, or less than the majority required by the special provisions for a deadlocked conclave, an election has not occurred.
If it was the first ballot of the session the Electors proceed to vote again. After the second ballot the ballots of both sessions are burned, whether an election occurs or not.
If two-thirds of the votes have been cast for the same person, or the majority required by the special provisions for a deadlocked conclave) an election has occurred.
The Scrutineers, with the assistance of the Secretary of the Conclave and the Masters of Ceremony, who are re-admitted to the Conclave at this point, proceed to burn the ballots
After the junior Cardinal Deacon has re-admitted the Secretary of the College and the Master of Papal Liturgical Ceremonies, the Cardinal Dean, or, the Cardinal who is first in order and seniority, goes to the one elected and asks, …. Do you accept your canonical election as Supreme Pontiff? By giving consent, the one elected, provided he holds the episcopal order, immediately becomes the Bishop of Rome and Supreme Pontiff. If the one elected is not present, he would have to be summoned. If not a bishop he would have to be ordained one before proceeding.
The Cardinal Dean then asks, By what name do you wish to be called?
The Master of Papal Liturgical Ceremonies, with the witness of the two Masters of Ceremonies (who are now summoned), draw up a document certifying the consent of the one elected and the name he has chosen.
Following certain formalities prescribed in the ritual for the Conclave, each Cardinal comes forward in turn and makes an act of homage and obedience to the new Pope. An act of thanksgiving is then made by all present.
Following the vesting of the Pope the senior Cardinal Deacon announces from the loggia of St. Peter’s Basilica to those gathered in the Square Habemus papam (we have a pope)and the name he has chosen. The newly elected Pope then comes out to address and bless the City and the World (Urbi et Orbi).
The death / resignation of a pope sets in motion a series of events that will be governed by centuries-old taditions, the Apostolic Constitution and the pope’s personal wishes. These wishes are not public knowledge, but funeral details probably will follow a pattern established during modern papacies.
A few additional comments by me:
Everything that takes place within the Concave binds all of the Cardinal’s with the same degree of secrecy and privacy; and with the same penalties as those applying to Sacramental Confession. What takes place other than the FORM itself is forever held in absolute secrecy within the Church.
FYI: As a practical consideration there are a certain number of non-voting people also locked in with the Cardinals. Cooks, maintaince, cleaning staff and the like. They too take the same VOWS of secrecy.
Before the Concave was mandated; [… 1059 A D] how were Popes chosen?
Papal selection before 1059
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [A NOTABLY NON-CATHOLIC SITE]
“There was no fixed process for papal selection before 1059.
Popes, the bishops of Rome and the leaders of the Catholic Church, were often appointed by their predecessors or secular rulers. While the process was often characterized by some capacity of election, an election with the meaningful participation of the laity was the exception to the rule, especially as the popes’ claims to temporal power solidified into the Papal States. The practice of papal appointment during this period would later give rise to the jus exclusivae, a veto right exercised by Catholic monarchies into the twentieth century.
The lack of an institutionalized process for papal succession was prone to religious schism…. Furthermore, the frequent requirement of secular approval of elected popes significantly lengthened periods of sede vacante and weakened the papacy. In 1059, Pope Nicholas II succeeded in limiting future papal electors to the cardinals with In Nomine Domini, creating standardized papal elections that would eventually evolve into the papal conclave” end quote
From a Catholic Source:
“The supreme headship of the Church is, we have seen, annexed to the office of Roman bishop. The pope becomes chief pastor because he is Bishop of Rome: he does not become Bishop of Rome because he has been chosen to be head of the universal Church. Thus, an election to the papacy is, properly speaking, primarily an election to the local bishopric. The right to elect their bishop has ever belonged to the members of the Roman Church. They possess the prerogative of giving to the universal Church her chief pastor; they do not receive their bishop in virtue of his election by the universal Church. This is not to say that the election should be by popular vote of the Romans. In ecclesiastical affairs it is always for the hierarchy to guide the decisions of the flock. The choice of a bishop belongs to the clergy: it may be confined to the leading members of the clergy. It is so in the Roman Church at present. The electoral college of cardinals exercise their office because they are the chief of the Roman clergy. Should the college of cardinals ever become extinct, the duty of choosing a supreme pastor would fall, not on the bishops assembled in council, but upon the remaining Roman clergy. At the time of the Council of Trent Pius IV, thinking it possible that in the event of his death the council might lay some claim to the right, insisted on this point in a consistorial allocution.
It is thus plain that a pope cannot nominate his successor. History tells us of one pope — Benedict II (530) — who meditated adopting this course. But he recognized that it would be a false step, and burnt the document which he had drawn up for the purpose. On the other hand the Church’s canon law (10 D. 79) supposes that the pope may make provision for the needs of the Church by suggesting to the cardinals some one whom he regards as fitted for the office: and we know that Gregory VII secured in this way the election of Victor III. Such a step, however, does not in any way fetter the action of the cardinals. The pope can, further, legislate regarding the mode in which the subsequent election shall be carried out, determining the composition of the electoral college, and the conditions requisite for a definitive choice. The method at present followed is the result of a series of enactments on this subject.
A brief historical review will show how the principle of election by the Roman Church has been maintained through all the vicissitudes of papal elections. St. Cyprian tells us in regard to the election of Pope St. Cornelius (251)
that the comprovincial bishops, [LOCAL] the clergy, and the people all took part in it: “He was made bishop by the decree of God and of His Church, by the testimony of nearly all the clergy, by the college of aged bishops [sacerdotum], and of good men”(Ep. Iv ad Anton., n. 8). And a precisely similar ground is alleged by the Roman priests in their letter to Emperor Honorius regarding the validity of the election of Boniface I (A. D. 418; P. L., XX, 750). Previous to the fall of the Western Empire interference by the civil power seems to have been inconsiderable. Constantius, it is true, endeavoured to set up an antipope, Felix II (355), but the act was universally regarded as heretical. Honorius on the occasion of the contested election of 418 decreed that, when the election was dubious, neither party should hold the papacy, but that a new election should take place. This method was applied at the elections of Conon (686) and Sergius I (687). The law is found in the Church’s code (c. 8, d. LXXIX), though Gratian declares it void of force as having emanated from civil and not ecclesiastical authority (d. XCVI, proem.; d. XCVII, proem.). After the barbarian conquest of Italy, the Church’s rights were less carefully observed. Basilius, the prefect of Odoacer, claimed the right of supervising the election of 483 in the name of his master, alleging that Pope Simplicius had himself requested him to do so (Hard., II, 977).
The disturbances which occurred at the disputed election of Symmachus (498) led that pope to hold a council and to decree the severest penalties on all who should be guilty of canvassing or bribery in order to attain the pontificate. It was moreover decided that the majority of votes should decide the election. Theodoric the Ostrogoth, who at this period ruled Italy, became in his later years a persecutor of the Church. He even went so far as to appoint Felix III (IV) in 526 as the successor of Pope John I, whose death was due to the incarceration to which the king had condemned him. Felix, however, was personally worthy of the office, and the appointment was confirmed by a subsequent election The precedent of interference set by Theodoric was fruitful of evil to the Church. After the destruction of the Gothic monarchy (537), the Byzantine emperors went even farther than the heretical Ostrogoth in encroaching on ecclesiastical rights. Vigilius (540) and Pelagius I (553) were forced on the Church at imperial dictation. In the case of the latter there seems to have been no election: his title was validated solely through his recognition as bishop by clergy and people. The formalities of election at this time were as follows (Lib. Diurnus Rom. Pont., 2, in P. L., CV, 27). After the pope’s death, the archpriest, the archdeacon and the primicerius of the notaries sent an official notification to the exarch at Ravenna. On the third day after the decease the new pope was elected, being invariably chosen from among the presbyters or deacons of the Roman Church (cf. op. cit., 2, titt. 2, 3 5), and an embassy was despatched to Constantinople to request the official confirmation of the election. Not until this had been received did the consecration take place. The Church acquired greater freedom after the Lombard invasion of 568 had destroyed the prestige of Byzantine power in Italy. Pelagius II (,578) and Gregory I (590) were the spontaneous choice of the electors. And in 684, owing to the long delays involved in the journey to Constantinople, Constantine IV (Pogonatus) acceded to Benedict II’s request that in future it should not be necessary to wait for confirmation, but that a mere notification of the election would suffice. The 1088 of the exarchate and the iconoclastic heresy of the Byzantine court completed the severance between Rome and the Eastern Empire, and Pope Zacharias (741) dispensed altogether with the customary notice to Constantinople.
In 769 a council was held under Stephen III to rectify the confusion caused by the intrusion of the antipope Constantine. This usurper was a layman hurriedly raised to priest’s orders to render his nomination to the pontificate possible. To make a repetition of the scandal impossible it was decreed that only members of the sacred college were eligible for election. The part of the laity was, moreover, reduced to a mere right of acclamation. Under Charlemagne and Louis the Pious the Church retained her freedom. Lothair, however, claimed more ample rights for the civil power. In 824 he exacted an oath from the Romans that none should be consecrated pope without the permission and the presence of his ambassadors. This was, in fact, done at most of the elections during the ninth century, and in 898 the riots which ensued upon the death of Pope Stephen V led John IX to give ecclesiastical sanction to this system of imperial control. In a council held at Rome in that year he decreed that the election should be made by bishops (cardinal) and clergy, regard being had to the wishes of the people, but that no consecration should take place except in the presence of the imperial legate (Mansi XVIII, 225).
The due formalities at least of election appear to have been observed through the wild disorders which followed the collapse of the Carlovingian Empire: and the same is true as regards the times of Otto the Great and his son. Under the restored empire, however, the electors enjoyed no freedom of choice. Otto I even compelled the Romans to swear that they would never elect or ordain a pope without his or his son’s consent (963; cf. Liutprand, “Hist. Ott.”, viii). In 1046 the scandals of the preceding elections, in which the supreme pontificate had become a prize for rival factions entirely regardless of what means they employed, led clergy and people to leave the nomination to Henry III. Three popes were chosen in this manner. But Leo IX insisted that the Church was free in the choice of her pastors, and, until he was duly elected at Rome, declined to assume any of the state of his office. The party of reform, of which Hildebrand was the moving spirit, were eager for some measure which should restore an independent choice to the Church. This was carried out by Nicholas II. In 1059 he held a council in the Lateran and issued the Decree “In Nomine”. This document is found in two recensions, a papal and an imperial, both of early date. There is however little doubt that the papal recension embodied in the “Decretum Gratiani” (c. 1. d. XXIII) is genuine, and that the other was altered in the interest of the antipope Guibert. The right of election is confined to the cardinals, the effective choice being placed in the hands of the cardinal bishops: clergy and people have a right of acclamation only. The right of confirmation is granted to the Emperor Henry IV and to such of his successors as should personally request and receive the privilege. The pope need not necessarily be taken from the number of cardinals, though this should be the case if possible.
This decree formed the basis of the present legislation on the papal election, though the system underwent considerable development
. The first important modification was the Constitution “Licet de Vitanda” [c. vi, X, “De elect.” (I, 6)] of Alexander III, the first of the decrees passed by the Third Oecumenical Council of the Lateran (1179). To prevent the evils of a disputed election it was established by this law that no one should be held to be elected until two thirds of the cardinals should have given their votes for him. In this decree no distinction is made between the rights of the cardinal bishops and those of the rest of the Sacred College. The imperial privilege of confirming the election had already become obsolete owing to the breach between the Church and the Empire under Henry IV and Frederick I. Between the death of Clement IV (1268) and the coronation of Gregory X (1272) an interregnum of nearly three years intervened. To prevent a repetition of so great a misfortune the pope in the Council of Lyons (1179) issued the Decree “Ubi periculum” [c. iii, “De elect.”, in 60 (I, 6)], by which it was ordained that during the election of a pontiff the cardinals should be secluded from the world under exceedingly stringent regulations, and that the seclusion should continue till they had fulfilled their duty of providing the Church with a supreme pastor. To this electoral session was given the name of the Conclave. This system prevails at the present day. End Quote
authored by: G. H. JOYCE
Let us continue to PRAY for the Promised guidance of the Holy Spirit!
John: 14: 16-17 filled IN John 20:21-22
I’m glad to be back home again. Questions ALWAYS welcome/