a New Series on Apologetics Lesson #6


A New Apologetics Series 2013

Lesson #6 by Pat Miron

Q #26 . If to the UNSAVED are not the unsaved UNBORN OF GOD? Now, do you give commands to your child BEFORE IT IS BORN or AFTER it is born? Can an UNBORN child obey a parent?

That’s not actually the question being asked is it? It seems to me the correct question is “can an “Unborn” child be saved in the womb?” The answer conditionally seems to be “Yes.” BUT know this is not yet a Doctrine of the CC.

Catholic Catechism: 169 “Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith”

Here is the Latest Teachings on this matter:

Vatican commission: Limbo reflects ‘restrictive view of salvation’

April 27, 2007 … Vatican commission: Limbo reflects ‘restrictive view of salvation’http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0702216.htm
By John Thavis Catholic News Service  ..

“After several years of study, the Vatican’s International Theological Commission said there are good reasons to hope that babies who die without being baptized go to heaven.

In a document published April 20, the commission said the traditional concept of limbo — as a place where unbaptized infants spend eternity but without communion with God — seemed to reflect an “unduly restrictive view of salvation.”

The church continues to teach that, because of original sin, baptism is the ordinary way of salvation for all people and urges parents to baptize infants, the document said.

But there is greater theological awareness today that God is merciful and “wants all human beings to be saved,” it said. Grace has priority over sin, and the exclusion of innocent babies from heaven does not seem to reflect Christ’s special love for “the little ones,” it said.

“Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered … give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision,” the document said.”

“We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge,” it added. …. “    End Quote
The thinking behind this news goes something like this:

God is in charge

God is All Good

God is a God of Mercy and Love

God in the Creation of Humanity “In His Image”

Gen. 1; 26-27 “ [God speaking] …… “And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moves upon the earth.“ The precise manner and form of this emulation is mans mind, intellect and Freewill’s which become a permanent part on our Souls. Like God Himself, these “things” are both Spiritual and Eternal. God then Obligates Himself as He must, being “Fair and Just,” to permit every person [every soul] Created to choose for themselves where they will spend Eternity. Ecclesiasticus 15:18Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him”.

Through the Powers of God actually and really given to the Apostles and though them by necessity to the CC [a topic discussed and proven multiple times already]; the Church as holder of the Key’s to heaven and the Powers of “Binding and Loosening”; which speak to Unlimited Powers of Governance [Please see the document of the “Key’s Explained“] of the New Church and its New One Faith, uses Her [“Mother Church‘s”] good graces [speaks only of the church itself, NOT Her members]; Her position of Sinlessness and Perfection; Her Powers of Authority as granted by God Himself; combined with the good intentions of the parents to grant a “Baptism of desire” to the unborn. Thus permitting Gods Love and Mercy to become manifest. MY WORDS and MY explanation PJM

While this reflects current thought it is yet to be Officially defined

Q #27. Do you and your Brethren not teach that the COMMANDS of God are given to the UNBORN and that they, the commands are but instruments BY WHICH the UNBORN can obtain BIRTH?

I have just expressed the current thoughts of “Thee Church” on this matter. Because all “Good things” are possible for God; and Salvation of Souls most certainly is a very good thing; and as God desires that ALL attain Salvation; knowing all the while it will not happen [speaking here on the born; not the inborn].

Mt. 7: 13-15Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 

1 Timothy 2:4 “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” … Ecclesiasticus 32:17And for all these things bless the Lord, that made thee, and that replenishes thee with all his good things”

Q #28 . You boast of LOGIC -where is there any LOGIC to this matter?

IMO, this is shocking statement. I can’t ever recall “logic” as being a tool pf Protestant Bible understanding. I mean no lack of charity here. But there are so many obviously and clearly Teachings articulated in the Bible which are regularly ignored or denied; that this seems to ME,  to be an illogical question as framed?

One Church and Only One Faith [because there in ONLY One God]; The Eucharist as Real presence attested to by God and FIVE Bible authors; the Forgiveness of sins [God’s way], and salvation issues all being on the short list.

Q# 29. If you say -Baptism is a command for the SAVED – you find yourself in the BAPTIST position, EXACTLY This you do not teach or believe. See Acts 2:41. WHO was baptized here?

I would LOVE the opportunity to dialog with the author of these Questions. By Making one error [Spiritually Fatal though it be]]; an entire religion is somehow formed. And one wonders why there are ??? Thousands of differing church’s each with it OWN set of beliefs? This explains much. But we ought not male light  of this Because Faith, with its Right wisdom and Understanding are proprietarily gifts of God.

Exodus 33:19He answered: I will shew thee all good, and I will proclaim in the name of the Lord before thee: and I will have mercy on whom I will, and I will be merciful to whom it shall please me.”

Archbishop Fulton Sheen; in his book: “the Life of Christ” had a most memorable manner of explaining this aspect of God’s Mind and Will: cf. “ As the sun shines at the same time on a candle and on a clay pot;  one is melted and the other hardened, yet it is the same sun.”

Acts 2:41“[I added verses 42-45] [41] They therefore that received his word, were baptized; and there were added in that day about three thousand souls. ** And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: many wonders also and signs were done by the apostles in Jerusalem, and there was great fear in all. And all they that believed, were together, and had all things common. Their possessions and goods they sold, and divided them to all, according as every one had need.”

** “His Word” as a FYI : John 3:5 and Mt. 28:19-20[5] Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. … [19-20] “Go! therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

Q #30. Do you and your Brethren not also teach and believe- that Jesus Christ was not the Son of God until after His Baptism?

Certainly not! Such a position is clearly anti-biblical. Meaning teaching against what the Bible clearly teaches

Luke 1: 26-35 “And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.  Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. And of his kingdom there shall be no end. And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

And so dear friends we come to the end of another Lesson. Until next time: Stay close to God so God can stay close to you.

God Bless,

Pat Miron



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