Protestant Th…


 

Protestant Theology & Catholic Doctrines

Exposed to cover & discover theNaked Truth“… Catholic responses to the Booklet: “Answers to my Catholic Friends”

by Thomas F. Heinze    part 3A

Catholic reply to Protestant “[mis]- Understandings” Part 3a

“WHERE Do the Differences Between Catholics and Come From?”

Romans 2:4-6

Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works:”

“Many people tell me [quoting Thomas], “you Protestants interpret the Bible one way, and the Catholic Church another.” …”The differences are not really differences of interpretation,  but of authority. For Biblical Protestants,  the authority is the Word of God. A priest summed it up this way: ”

You Protestants believe everything that the book say’s’ “

Thomas goes on to make the following additional points

.The Catholics have Their altar of sacrifice in the middle of the sanctuary; the place of honor, and the place for the bible is set off to the side. We Protestants have the Bible center stage, for easy access by the preacher. … Because the Word of God is the most important.

Catholics do hold the Bible as being Divinely Inspired, but hold it on a par with Tradition and Papal and Council pronouncements. He claims “that many points of Tradition are not consistent with what the bible proclaims; But give no examples of this, but I assume he speaks the Marian Issues?

His final statement in this section proclaims: It is at the end of these points where Thomas Pontificates: “that each of us must decide what he will do.”

Sin has three sources:

1. The world we live in and it’s sinful influence; 2. Our “flesh /Passions”; 3. and the Devil. All three have a part in the lack of RIGHT understanding of the Bible.

1. Those around us “naturally” influence our way of thinking [or NOT thinking for ourselves]. Most of us are reluctant to “buck the popular trends” for fear of personal embarrassment, stemming from a lack of understanding and faith in God.

2. Our passions; this time in the form of “Pride”  is one of Satan’s favorite and most utilized tools. “Knowing more than; or knowing better than” God, the Catholic Church, Every Pope and even History, as well as the Bible all  take a lesser place of significance to Protestant secular “logic”.  Our “right to our own opinion” often negates and exceeds the reality of the truth

3. The Devil is Real, active, cunning, duplicitous and builds on all three vehicles to aid God in blocking RIGHT understanding of the Bible. God with His motive and satan with his own reasons. “One’s right” of self interpretation; despite it being clearly denied in the bible itself, is ignored and denied.

2nd. Peter 1: 16-21  “You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts

First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,  because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

Matt.13:9-12 “He who has ears, let him hear.” Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.”  For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. “

2nd. Peter 3: 14 -17  “Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters.

 There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability

John 5: 37 “And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen;  and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life;and it is they that bear witness to me;  yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life [Speaking of accepting the entire WORD of GOD]. I do not receive glory from men .[Meaning disobedience is rampant!]  But I know that you have not the love of God within you.  I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me” [Listen to or Obey Me!]

Our Catholic Catechism # 1849 defines “sin” as follows: Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. [PRIDE]  It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as “an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law.”

Pope Saint “Basil The Great” say’s this about sin: “Sin is the misuse of powers granted by God for God’s Good and Glory, and used contrary to the manner God himself commands“.

James 1:12-17 “Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness [OBEDIENCE] have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives to all men generously and without reproaching, and it will be given him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. For that person must not suppose that a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways, will receive anything from the Lord. Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. [One’s own will and PRIDE] Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.  Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.” 

There can only be a single truth per issue [applying logic here], so the position of Thomas seems to be that there was no biblical truth prior to the formation of our  Brethren’s Protestant faith’s [plural], and there newly discovered  and uncovered “truths‘ after a period of about ONE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED YEARS of ONLY one Faith; the Faith of the Catholic Church. Their first error is again; denial of Christ in the Eucharist, and the FACT that as Jesus Himself assures us;  “I AM God and I AM Present“, He therefore deserves and commands the place of honor afforded to Him in Catholic Practice. That is why the altar if Sacrifice in located front and center. God becomes Preset on it!

Second; on the issue of “authority.” Thomas [and most Protestants] are not recognizing what the Bible ACTUALLY say’s about the Catholic Church teachings Authoritatively, because it alone is Christ Own Church, and the One set of faith-beliefs taught and protected by God himself. The issue is further solidified by the fact that the Bible remains  a Catholic Book, in collection, and in origin of the entire New Testament which explains then why God ONLY guides the CC in granting His “FULL TRUTH“, and CORRECT UNDERSTANDING of His Word.

It is extremely important; even vital to recognize that the Protestant claim that the bible; for them, “acts for “as their “god,”

This is based on a complete and total falsehood. Because God” is not with them in the same manner He IS with us Catholics. The Bible Alone” then acts as the “only and final authority“, leading Protestants to consistent errors and numerous disagreements within even there own non-catholic ranks.”

YET that same “final authority” is NOT fully accepted, and is often rejected, with mazing consistently, as “common self- selectively” is regularly applied on all of their following positions which are taught in the Bible.

1.. Only One God; Only

One set of Faith beliefs, and Only one church approved, guided and guarded organization as was set up by Christ. [John 14:16-17; John 17:15-19; John 20-19-22; Matt. 28:16-20, Matt. 16:18-19].

2. The Primacy of Peter. Jesus gave the key’s to heavens access to Peter and the CC alone.

3. The denial of the proper place and absolute need for the CC as The Primary and Guided Teacher chosen by God

4. The essential Role of grace , especially “sacramental grace“ in BOTH Faith and salvation

5. Salvation issues and how salvation might be possible [clearly NOT OSAS] which denies God’s Divinity and humanities freewill, mind and intellect.

6. Predestination as part of salvation is NOT God’s way [nor the bibles, IF correctly understood.

7. The Seven Sacraments ALL instituted by Christ [explicitly or implicitly] for our benefit.

8.

Forgiveness of Sins and how it  MUST happen, because God Himself say’s so.

9. That reading the Bible while a good thing; OFTEN [as evidenced by the MULTITUDE of Protestant denominations and varying faith-beliefs] ; is dangerous when not done in full-accord with the

One Authority guided and honored by God; thee CC. [Mt.16:15-19; Mt.28:16-20; John 14:16-17; John 17:15-19, John 20:19-22; Eph. 4:1-7, Acts 20:29, Rom. 3:2; Jer. 3:15; 1 John 4:4-5;  2nd. Cor. 11:12-13, All of John chapter six; Mt. 7:21-23, 2nd. Tim. 4:1-4, 2nd. Tim.3:16-17, and 2nd. Peter 2:1-2.]AND THIS IS only A PARTIAL LIST OF BIBLE PASSAGES THEY DO NOT ACCEPT., so it seems foolish to spend more time on this topic.

10.  Traditions: Which is interesting from two perspectives. As the Bible was not completely written until the end of the First Century; and even then, it was not collected or widely available, although some individual writings were referenced from time to time, so the Early Church HAD TO rely on Traditions and personal accounts [inspired by the Holy Spirit [John 14:26] ; and the second point is the VERY Bible, they claim to follow admonishes the early Church to FOLLOW Traditions.

2 Thess. 2: 13-15 “But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”

2 Thess . 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us

“A Changing Church” Here are the key points that Thomas brings out is this section.

“What the catholic Church believes to be right or wrong changes over the course of time“

The foundational issue remains the same . Lack of right understanding. Thomas seems unable to discern the difference between doctrines and dogmas that cannot change; and church practices which can and do change under the authority of “the key’s” in …

 Matthew 16:15-19. The fact that the Mass was mandated to be said World wide in Latin, and was changed by Vatican II to the “common language of the country“ It was a “sin“ prior to this to say the Mass in the Common language of the country. This is “Church practice ” not a doctrine

 “The Magesterium approved the sin” Thomas references is one of disobedience to church authority.  Prior to Vatican II changes were approved as is the Right of the Pope and Teaching authority relating to issues of PRACTICE. Latin became the World wide language of the RCC upon the translation of the Bible into the then “common language” of Latin from Greek and Hebrew. Canon law maintains that Latin is still the “common language “ of the Universal CC and has reinstituted it as a mandatory subject in all seminaries world wide. Also the Use of Latin is NOT forbidden in the Sacred Liturgy, and is even required [but not always obeyed] to be retained in parts of the Mass. [Bishops option.]

Eating meat of Fridays used to be a sin; but is no longer

This too is “church practice.” And it is an agenda driven issue  by those trying to turn the practices of the CC into practices acceptable to the Protestant communities; in the ongoing effort to “become more like them” .. The idea of many progressive and disobedient Bishops, priest and religious to “become more like Protestants, as they refuse to become more like us” remains in MY OWN opinion the GREATEST scandal of the CC in history! Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict have endeavored and continue work to bring us back to where we need to be.

“Down through the centuries, many changes have also entered into church teachings, which are strongly  in disagreement with the bible [SEE CHAPTER FOUR].

We might illustrate this with the acceptance of the veneration of images in churches. Differences between Catholic doctrine and that of those for whom the bible is the following authority do not result from a Protestant desire to be obnoxious, but rather from the fact that where is a conflict between the teachings from the bible and those taught by the CC. Each person must choose in these points which authority they choose to obey.

Because of the vagueness of the charge and the fact that it will be covered later in great detail in a later chapter, I will only comment that this too stems from their incorrect understanding of what the bible actually teaches, which we will prove in chapter four rebuttal.

For the most part, the traditions that are in contrast to the Bible began to form after 300A.D. [Anno Domini] in the time of the Roman emperor Constantine, and generally developed until they had become dogma of the CC, though a few of the anti-biblical doctrines are very recent.”

The reason many changes did not happen prior to Constantine was the EXTREME/severe persecution of the  CC that was so bad that in drove the church literally underground into the catacombs to avoid capture, torture and death. There was no freedom to practice the Faith openly until Constantine’s liberation of ALL different kinds of faith beliefs and practices in the Forth Century.

The final point under this heading is the fact that we Catholics copied the charismatic movement from them.

Even if this is true, why is that of significance?

“Why Follow the Bible”

Here we see very clear evidence of what the Bible it self warns about. Even the Protestants cannot deny that the thousands of differing understandings and separate Protestant church’s lies at the feet of personal interpretation. Why? Because it is NOT God’s way!

2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts . First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,  because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

“Why Follow the Bible”

Because it has made sinful lives good and worthwhile Because it is ‘inspired by God’ QUOTING

2nd. Tim. 3:16-17 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work”

Help me out here. If the entire Bible is actually believed and understood  to be inspired by God; then ought not the ENTIRE Bible be used in reaching correct conclusions? 

While there exist many prudent rules and guidelines for RIGHT understanding of the Bible ; there is BUT ONE Infallible, never to be forgotten or overridden RULE for uncovering God’s Own Truth, At no time; never, ever; can or may one part of the Bible contradict or set aside another Biblical teaching. Were this even the most remote of possibilities; [it’s Not!] the Bible under conditions of accepted contradictions would be completely worthless. Absolutely and completely Useless in teaching or learning ones Faith IN ACCORD WITH GOD’S OWN WILL  And yet this is exactly what is necessary for one to accept and embrace these positions as expressed by Thomas. The catholic positions are nearly 100% biblical, as will be shown.

Any and All evidence of a seemingly contradictive statement is PROOF POSITIVE of human error of and incorrect understanding. So how does one then resolve such apparent conflicts of theology, doctrine and understanding will become our first priority to explain. Consider the following points carefully and prayerfully.

Logic itself assures that God would have anticipated this potential problem of wrong understanding, in the course of human-secular history, and would have Himself provided the answer. Logic also confirms that for every precisely defined issue there can only be One single truth

 The First element of truth to be explained has two key elements:

1. Never in the recorded history of the God-man relationship, has God even one time indicated that He God would approve of any alternative Faith beliefs not taught by Him personally; or Inspired and fully protected by the Holy Spirit. If anyone did chosen to teach a different Faith., such actions were often the impetus for swift and severe rebukes by God. While after 2,000 years there  remains ONLY One Catholic Church , [23 braches], all sharing the same, One set of commonly held faith beliefs; our Protestant brethren have a HUGE number of differing sets of faith beliefs, often within the same denomination; indicative of what might be expected without God’s Own Guidance, protection and warranty. This sad reality stems from “everyone being entitled [somehow?] to their own understanding [with God’s expected approval of it.] ONLY the CC  actually has these gifts and assurance, of God’s own Truths and such is proven by the Bible itself.

Romans 13: 1-4 “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. [Appointed by Christ Himself]  For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.”

2. The second point is the it is GOD who choose Peter and the Apostles. And it is God who choose to restrict heavens access to what is taught By Jesus, through Peter and the Catholic Church. [Mt. 16:18-19]

John 14:16-18 [Prefaced by verses 1- 9 to insure Jesus is in FACT addressing His Apostles and therefore today’s CC, specifically]Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? [NOTICE: Jesus is specifically addressing His Catholic believers here….John13:34-38] And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him.” Philip [the Apostle] said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father’? ….  And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever,  even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. “I will not leave you desolate; I will come to you” [Fulfilled in John 20:21-22]

John 17:6-19 I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me, and they have kept thy word. Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee; for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine; all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. [MEANS WITH MY Godly Power and Authority …SEE Matt. 10:1-8 for verification] And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.” No other Church, or faith-organization other than the catholic Church that Jesus Himself founded , can make this claim FACTUALLY!

John 20: 18-25“ Mary Mag’dalene went and said to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord”; and she told them that he had said these things to her. On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe.”

All of the following are made evident here IF CORRECTLY understood within these few verses:

1. This is the official founding of the Catholic Church [the fulfillment of Jesus giving the keys to heaven to Peter in  Matt. 16:16-19.]

2. The Feast of Pentecost is Initiated  and the fulfillment of the promised Holy Spirit for eternity in the CC is now FACT.

3. The Sacrament of Confirmation is created by Jesus

4. The Sacrament [and only God approved method of forgiveness of our sins] of Confession / Penance

5. God’s actual and Real Powers and Authority are confirmed exclusively for HIS Catholic Church

Acts.20: 28Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you [SINGULAR / My Apostles] overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.” Romans 13: 2 “Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.” The Bible was completely written when the ONLY “church” [a Jesus self-introduced term] in existence in the Entire world, is today’s Catholic Church. The New Testament alone has more than 100 references to Only One Church. Other churches would not appear until about 1,000 years later when the Easten [former Roman Catholic] churches entered into schism from the Mother Church. Protestant would not come unto the scene for several hundred more years.

Matt. 28: 16-20 “ Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

With absolute 100% certitude once can see this COMMAND given directly to the Apostles ONLY and through them to the RCC Alone There is No; NONE; not a shred of evidence that it passes on to DIFFERINGB sets of faith belief. This dear friends is not an uncharitable statement; only a FACT!

2. God, both Yahweh and Jesus, consistently choose who THEY desired to Lead their chosen people.In the OT is was the Hebrew nation and in the NT in it the Catholic Church [NO other churches even existed for  nearly ONE THOUSAND YEARS]. Adam, Noah, Abram, David, the Judges and prophets, John the Baptist, and the Apostles, led by Peter. …His “chosen people” are so important to them that God personally choose and selected who would lead, and who was to follow them. It defies logic and the bible to claim that  Jesus desires anyone, or any other organization BUT His own choice of Peter and the CC to be the leaders of today. PART of that leadership , logically, is the exclusive and God protected and guided right to translate the Bible correctly. The evidence is clear [or OUGHT TO BE], that it is precisely the denial of this ONE truth that has led to the proliferation of differing and independent beliefs embodied under the Protestant umbrella.

The bible contains everything necessary to bring the Christian to perfection. …We need add nothing from Tradition to bring believers to this fully competent and equipped sate.

To accept Sola Scriptoria; as I have shown, it is necessary to deny both the Bible and God.  There would be NO Catholic or no Christian faith were it not for the essential role of Tradition, as the bible would not become completely written and a factor for about another hundred years  That is NOT denial of the essential role of the Bible, only of its exclusive use. Matt. 16: 18-19 “And I [GOD] tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my [SINGULAR] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. [AND I God personally will guide, guard and protect what you teach on all Faith issues and ALL Moral issues ISMY TRUTH]…I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

This final statement is on one hand, commonly understood to mean the power to remit sin [and then just as quickly denied]; when it actually references Gods Own Power and Authority to GOVERN the Church as the “chair of Peter” {Moses-chair} finds necessary and beneficial for souls.

 It is a literal impossibility for the Pope or the Magesterium to teach in error; on any matter of Faith belief or Morals [as proven above]. IMPOSSIBLE because Christ Himself is the warranty and the Holy Spirit is the Ever Present guide and Protector. Because as the apostle Peter informs us in his second letter, the Bible is more reliable than that which he had seen with his [own] eyes and heard with his [own] ears because it is written by men compelled by the Holy Spirit

. It is also more reliable than the traditions which contradict it [NO FURTER DETAILS PROVIDED]. 

[2nd. Peter 1:16-21] “ For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

Some misinterpret a part of this Scripture and say only the CC is capable of interpreting the Bible.

This passage however speaks of God’s guidance of those who WROTE [my emphasis], the Bible,  and does not say only certain ones can interpret it. Paul praised the believers in Berea for examining the Scriptures for themselves to see if he was teaching them what was really spiritual: Thomas is correct in this [mis] understanding. The BIBLE proves the position of the CC. Beginning with Matthew 16 where Jesus does three amazing and incontrovertible things:

1. Introduces the term “church” to be added to the vocabulary of “Temple” and “Synagogue”.  This is of GREAT significance because it clearly implies ANOTHER  form; another set of religious beliefs and practices; unknown up to this time of it’s Godly introduction.

2. Jesus gives the ONLY Key’s to the gates of this HIS “church / kingdom” to Peter ALONE. Signifying responsibility of Exclusive Leadership [which by absolute necessity HAD to be transferable in order to complete the Mission commanded in Matthew 28:19-20 “Teach the ENTIRE WORLD what I taught you!”

3. God commits Himself to Divine Protection, Guidance and Intervention to insure the longevity that God’s knows will be necessary to fulfill His desires and Commands. Fulfilled in John 14:16-17; John 17:15-19 and John 20:19-22]

Matt. 16:18-19 “ And I tell you, you are Peter,[SINGULAR] and upon this rock I will build my church, [SINGULAR…nearly 1,500 YEARS before the Protestant Revolution, led by Luther]  and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give youthe keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

It’s members were better disposed than those in Thessalonica, and welcomed the message with great enthusiasm. Each day they studied the scripture to see if these things were so”

Acts 17:11 “Now these Jews were more noble [better educated] than those in Thessaloni’ca, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so”

The New Testament speaks a great deal about tradition, and condemns it WHEN IT IS CONTRARY TO GOD’S WORD. Jesus said: You disregard God’s Commandments and cling to what is human tradition…

That is the way you nullify God’s word in favor of the traditions you have handed on.

Mark 7:8,13 [I reinserted the passages Thomas did not quote; verses 9-12] “You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.” And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God, in order to keep your tradition! For Moses said, `Honor your father and your mother’; and, `He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die’; but you say, `If a man tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is Corban’ (that is, given to God) —  then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, thus making void the word of God through your tradition which you hand on. And many such things you do.”

Matt. 15: 2-6 “ [Here again it is necessary to add back in the verses that complete the teaching of Christ; I added verses 1, 7-9] “Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” He answered them, “And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, `Honor your father and your mother,’ and, `He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.’ But you say, `If any one tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.’ So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'”

Col. 2:8 [I have added back in verses 6-9] As therefore you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so live in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.  See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,”

1st. Thess. 2:13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.”

Gal.1:14 [I added 6-13] “ I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the race of Christ and turning to a different gospel not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed. Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ. For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ. For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it; and I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. Some trying to justify the authority of the CC over that of Scripture, remind us that the bible does NOT contain [my emphasis] everything that Jesus and the apostles taught. This is certainly true and the Bible itself affirms it. THIS FACT HOWEVER, GIVES NO AUTHORIZATION TO ACCEPT THE MANY CATHOLIC DOCTRINES WHICH ARE EXPLICITLY CONTRARY TO THE TEACHINGS OF SCRIPTURE.

Thomas, you’re position here seems disingenuous? The Catholic Church claims NO POWER of authority “over the Bible.” She does,

 because it is the mandate of Jesus Christ in person to have SOLE responsibility of correctly interpreting the Bible; because as I have shown now multiple times; She ALONE is Guided, Guarded, and Led by BOTH Jesus Christ [in-Person], and the Holy Spirit; and thus is the ONLY entity that being GUIDED and PROTECTED by God Himself; is able to share the fullness of the Truth of God’s word. I challenge to share with us just one example of the Church overriding or contradicting what the Bible ACTUALLY means and intends to teach.

Rev. 22:18-19 “ I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. Mark 7: 3-13 “[I added1-2, 14-15] “

Now when the Pharisees gathered together to him, with some of the scribes, who had come from Jerusalem, they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands defiled, that is, unwashed. (For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat unless they wash their hands, observing the tradition of the elders; and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they purify themselves; and there are many other traditions which they observe, the washing of cups and pots and vessels of bronze.) And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not live according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with hands defiled?” And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, `This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’ you leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.” And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God, in order to keep your tradition! For Moses said, `Honor your father and your mother’; and, `He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die’; but you say, `If a man tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is Corban’ (that is, given to God) — then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, thus making void the word of God through your tradition which you hand on. And many such things you do.”  And he called the people to him again, and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him.”

“THE BIBLE CONTAINS ALL THAT IS NEEDED TO BRING US TO FAITH IN CHRIST, AND TO HELP US GROW IN THAT FAITH.”

Even were this true, and it is NOTit is clearly taught in the Bible that One NEEDS a guide; needs one guided by God Himself, not as merely assumed by calling oneself “a man of god”, but  by those actually chosen by God; trained with God’s guidance and actually called by God for this purpose.

John.15: 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you”

Matt. 7:14-27 “ For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves . You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits.


“Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’  “Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. [SINGULAR… Meaning Peter and the CC] and everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it.”

2nd. Peter 1: 16-21  “You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

Rom.10: 17“So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ”

Eph.3:  9 to 12 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: meaning  THE CATHOLIC Church] the  manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him

Matt.13:9-12 “He who has ears, let him hear.” Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven,  but to them it has not been given.”  For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. “

2nd. Peter 3: 14 -17 “Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability

John 20: 30-31 [I ADDED back in verses 18-23] of the same book and chapter] Mary Mag’dalene went and said to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord”; and she told them that he had said these things to her. On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, [Pentec0ost Sunday] the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” …. Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

The great majority of the differences between Bible-believing Protestants and the RCC do not come from different interpretations of the bible [DIRECTLY THAT IS] or different authority.

The Bible must be interpreted in the light of itself and neither set twisted nor set aside to honor the pronouncements of popes, councils, or traditions.

This in my opinion is a silly, illogical and improvable comment. OF COURSE THEY ARE ! [2nd. Thess.15:3-6] “ So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. …  Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.”

[HERE is the ONLY reference that I am aware of that actually speaks about the CURRENT / NT / New Covenant Traditions.

As you read this last point; keep in your mind where GOD places His Truth and His Authority. Who holds that Key to heavens gate and WHY?

Certainly belief in Christ is where Faith begins and it is of course through Him, that Grace and Faith, true Wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding come and actually flow from and through God to you. Not simply some “I know more / I know better,” very mortal man.

2nd. Cor. 4:3-4 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.”

END OF THIRD Section # 3

 

 Protestant Th…


 

Protestant Theology & Catholic Doctrines

 

Exposed to cover & discover the

 

 

 

 

 

Naked Truth“… Catholic responses to the Booklet: “Answers to my Catholic Friends”

by Thomas F. Heinze  Part 2

A Catholic reply to Protestant “[mis]- Understandings” Part 2

“Do the Bread and Wine Become Christ Body and Blood”?

My dear friends in Christ,

Allow me to please set a platform for this part of the discussion. I do not exaggerate one iota when I claim

that this topic, while wrongly understood, is nevertheless a well thought out and formulated thesis. It is draconian in nature because it attempts to place a STAKE  into the very heart, body, mind and soul of the entirety of our Catholic beliefs. If one is unable to defend this issue,  of Christ “Real Presence, one is unable to defend Catholism in total. They win; we lose! …WHY?

CCC 1324 “The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.”

“The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.” [Sacrifice]

CCC 1074 “The liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed; it is also the font from which all her power flows.”

It is therefore the privileged place for catechizing the People of God. “Catechesis is intrinsically linked with the whole of liturgical and sacramental activity, for it is in the sacraments, especially in the Eucharist, that Christ Jesus works in fullness for the transformation of men.”

Catholics Reply:

I shall include my comments directly under his, comments, in order to make it an easy reference to each specific point that Thomas has raised. This is indeed a well thought out position. BUT is proves clearly and without discussion that it is based ONLY on only human logic. No credit is given to Jesus as  a all- Good-God; able to do ANY GOOD THING. If in FACT, the Catholic position is correct; then this becomes the GREATEST POSSIBLE GOOD in the entire history of the Universe

 I’m finding it beneficial to keep reminding myself that Thomas too, like us is a Baptized Christian. A Brother in Christ, and that this is not a direct assault on us personally. It is evident the he loves, and in his own way is serving God. It is also evident that my understanding of God limiting Protestant understanding is too correct. While the arguments are well thought out, and a bit different than the normal Protestant explanation; based on

 John 6: selected verses; 35-69there clearly is lacking the depth of understanding of God’s very Nature and the precise reason for human existence and how they necessarily relate as expressed within the Bible itself. God’s basis for imposing such a penalty is::

Matt. 25: 27-29 …“So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents. … For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away” All those who are “given more “ [Baptized], will be held to a far more critical evaluation by God., as the Holy Spirit is AVAILABLE to them for guidance.

 1st. Cor. 11:23-29 “For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself”

Because we can safely assume that Mr. Heinze does not accept this Catholic teaching, rather than detail the specifics in detail; I will instead simply supply his arguments against and denying the reality of Christ Real Presence and then respond to each of them. But first here is a Catholic Response to this Catholic belief and practice.

The Eucharist; explained by Catholics

I AM Catholic, by Pat Miron

Mark.12: 24“Jesus said to them, “Is not this why you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God?”

POINT #1.

The Body of evidence that supports WHY and HOW we Catholics have and continue to Hold this DIVINE-Truth is solidly biblically grounded, solidly Theologically grounded, and can be proven to have been correctly understood, lived and practiced from the time of Christ death to the present times, and beyond. That friends is some TWO-THOUSAND YEARS!

POINT #2.

People do not willingly give their life in barbaric, gruesome manners without evident cause. Each of the Apostles [except John who they tried to boil alive in oil; but was saved by God’s direct intervention], and a GREAT many others, including many early Popes, did just that. And many continue to the present time doing exactly that! There were MORE Catholic Martyrs in the Twentieth Century than EVRY preceding Century combined.” WHY? Because there is wider and greater disbelief then ever before.

POINT #3.

In addition to the Bibles information CORRECTLY understood, with it’s Testimony  of FIVE different New Testament Authors; ALL INSPIRED BY GOD HIMSELF, there is the actual Testimony and Personal Witness of Jesus Christ who is a Perfect God. 2nd. Tim. 3:16-17 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

John 5:[RSV] 3-36-38

But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has granted me to accomplish, these very works which I am doing, bear me witness that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen; and you do not have his word abiding in you,for you do not believe him whom he has sent.”

POINT #4.

It is necessary to point out that denial of this Truth on which the entirety of Christianity rest, is factually a “Denial of God Himself.” The One unforgivable sin. [Luke 12:10] The reality of Christ Real presence can ONLY be grasped, and accepted through

the red-tinted glasses of God’s Love for His created Humanity. Nothing Good is impossible for God. Manna, [signifying bread] ,the quail, [signifying meat-flesh], water [signifying life]. from the Rock and the First Miracle in Cana; transforming one substance [water] into another substance [wine]; ALL point to the “Real Presence” and God’s ability to do it.

Instead of this, you nourished your people with food of angels and furnished them bread from heaven, ready to hand, untoiled-for, endowed with all delights and conforming to every taste.

For this substance of yours revealed your sweetness toward your children, and serving the desire of him who received it, was blended to whatever flavor [needs] each one wished.

(Wisdom 16:20-21) For the elements changed places with one another, as on a harp the notes vary the nature of the rhythm, while each note remains the same. This may be clearly inferred from the sight of what took place. For land animals were transformed into water creatures, and creatures that swim moved over to the land. Fire even in water retained its normal power, and water forgot its fire-quenching nature. Flames, on the contrary, failed to consume the flesh of perishable creatures that walked among them, nor did they melt the crystalline, easily melted kind of heavenly food.

(Wisdom 19:18-21)

POINT #5.

God is ever-constant. Cannot change who and what he is. But the Old Testament points to the Messiah in the New Testament: The term ‘”Messiah” means “”Savior”  Christ promised His Apostles specifically and precisely  to “remain with THEM FOREVER“, and this follows in direct sequence order, AFTER the Resurrection of Christ. in Matt. 28:16-20 “Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. [Thomas doubted Christ resurrection] And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. … Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Here we have God affirming to His Apostles and through them His catholic Church to

 “remain with them forever! NOTE, He has JUST RISEN FROM THE DEAD and was speaking BODILY to them”

He explains HOW he God can do this: “ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH HAS BEEN GRANTRD TO ME.”

He Affirm that He WILL Do this:

 and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

And He explains WHY He will do this:

“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you” This can ONLY be accomplished with God’s direct intervention.

POINT #6

Isa.43 Verses 7and 21: every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.” AND the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.”

It is in these passages; these indicators of precisely WHY humanity exist; and precisely WHY Jesus Instituted the Most Holy Eucharist.. Humanity is the ONLY part of God’s Created Universe that stems from God’s own want.

 God is Love and desires to be equally loved in return. This can only be possible with Direct intervention and DIRECT AID form God Himself. There is and there can be no greater source of GRACE on earth that Catholic Holy Communion, because it IS GOD HIMSELF, and when we CHOOSE to receive Him worthily, MANY are the graces bestowed upon us. I… t is far more evident that it is God seeking a Personal Relationship with His Created, and will suffer any Humility to accomplish it; then it is clear that humanity seeks a personal relationship with Our God. This God sought Personal relationship is no more evident than in Catholic Holy Communion. Where [Catholic] humanity not only MEETS our God; but in a real sense becomes One WITH our God and thus consummates the MOST INTIMATE of all possible personal relationships.

POINT #7

Matthew 26: 26-28

And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

POINT #8

MARK 14: 22-24

And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke, and gave to them, and said: Take ye. This is my body. And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it.  And he said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many.

Point #9

Luke 22: 19-21

And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

Point # 10

Paul 1 Cor.11: 23-29

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread.  And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.  For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come

 POINT # 11 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself: [to be worthy of the privilege]  and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks judgment to himself”

It is an impossibility that Paul could have uttered these words of Grave Spiritual warning,

IF he were NOT knowingly speaking of the Transubstantiation of ordinary bread and wine into the very Real, now Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. One is not “condemned for consuming ONLY ordinary bread and wine!”

POINT # 12

The term applied to the practice of the Eucharist begin as “The Breaking of the Bread”

Acts.2: 42, 46 “And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, so it is evident that the Teaching of Christ was both CORRECTLY understood, and accepted and put into practice immediately after His Death. The first “churches” were peoples homes.

POINT # 13

The early Church Fathers interpreted these passages literally. In summarizing the early Fathers’ teachings on Christ’s Real Presence, renowned Protestant historian of the early Church J. N. D. Kelly, writes: “Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood”

(Early Christian Doctrines, 440).

Ignatius of Antioch

“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

POINT # 14 Justin Martyr

“We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

POINT #15 Irenaeus

“If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?” (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).

“He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?” (ibid., 5:2).

Point #16 Clement of Alexandria

“’Eat my flesh,’ [Jesus] says, ‘and drink my blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children” (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).

POINT # 16

John.8: 47 He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” 2Thes.2: 11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false,”…  1John.4: 6 “We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error”… John.8 Verses 43 to 47 : “Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” Acts.20: 28Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.” … Romans 13: 2 “Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”

POINT #17

Not one time in the entire Bible or in Tradition did or has God EVER permitted belief in # 1. More than one God [Triune] # 2. More than the ONLY Set of Faith-beliefs that He Himself Taught # 3. Or has God protected more than His Chosen People; now the Catholic Church. ALWAYS Only One Church [Jn.14:16-17; Jn.17: 15-19, And Jn.20:19-22]

Because the Bible is a Catholic Book and was completely written by the End of the First Century; the ONLY “church” in existence in the Entire world is today’s Roman catholic Church. Thus every biblical reference to a “church” or “churches” applies specifically and exclusively to today’s RCC.

Eph. 4: 1-7

“I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

John.10: 16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Eph. 2:19-20 “

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,  in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Eph. 3: 9-10

And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in  God who created all things;  that through the church [singular] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,”

POINT # 18

It is amazing is a sense that  Brother Thomas not once referenced John’s “Bread of Life Discourse,” the longest and most explicit of all of the bible testimonies, and very often quoted in the denial by Protestants of the True Teaching on the “Real Presence” BY Jesus HIMSELF. Then again it shows good judgment because there is an abundance of Christ; “First Person” teachings that supports the Catholic position.

John Chapter Six “The Bread of Life Discourse”

[35] Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. … This Is God; “All-knowing,” All-Wise” and  All-Perfect who is unable to lie of mislead anyone, which would be a Denial of God’s Divinity,  speaking in the First-Person as Our God, to His NEW “chosen-people.”

[36] But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. …

Being God and able to read minds and hearts: Jesus is completely aware of who it is that will DENY Him., and on what basis they choose to do so, but makes no changes to what he is proclaiming as Our God, who came to both Redeem and to Save us….

 [40] For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

This is spoken precisely to inform those present that EVEN if they have doubts that He is the Messiah; this is the Devine Will of Almighty God the Father

[41] The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” [42] They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, `I have come down from heaven’?” …[READ MARK 6:1-6 FOR THE SAME POSITION]And HERE we see where Thomas inherits his secular-humanistic-human logic ALONE thinking from. Here then are the ground’s for their unbelief and actual Denial of God. SECUALR-Humanistic Logic ONLY is applied without Faith, even without Hope or Love, that, admitted or not, stems from a Denial that Jesus Is god; and is capable of accomplishing “any good thing.”

[44] ; “and I will raise him up at the last day. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” ….  This of course is a precise reference to Heb. 3:12, quoted earlier.

[47] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. [48] I am the bread of life. [49] Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. [50] This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

One ought to see that each proclamation and explanation is more clear than that which precedes it.  Here Christ makes the comparison with what He is proclaiming HIMSELF as the “Bread of Life”; to what actually WAS the “bread of life” to their ancestors. And He goes even further in explaining that HE [Jesus] now IS [no ambiguity here] the New and now PERFECTED “Bread of Life.” And further EXPLAINS exactly WHY he has Chosen to do this. In order to be not only “a source of Grace”; but to become THEE source of Grace “par excelnance.”  PLEASE NOTICE that this is NOT a “done deal”; where everyone who receives Catholic Holy Communion worthily is guaranteed “personal salvation” ; rather only that this is the best possible means available for humanity to merit it. [And Like redemption itself; God desires to make it conditionally available to ALL of humanity]. … Then using the most precise term available and possible PROCLAIMS as GOD; that His Flesh is not merely “a sign, nor only a symbol”;

BUT His Real [now Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity: the ENTIRE Risen Christ! AMEN!

[52] The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” This brazen response is nothing short of shocking. They have been Blessed as no  others in the history of the World to witness personally, the arrival of the Long awaited Messiah and either personally saw or knew of others who actually witnessed one or more miracles done precisely in order to prove His Divinity First; then secondarily, to assist those in need. Once again is the CLEAR and PRESENT DANGER of secular-humanistic-logic; completely VOID of Faith, of Hope or of Love.

The Lord’s response is one ONLY God can make. Both in its charity and its clarity.

[53] So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; [54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.[56] He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. [57] As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.

In my opinion; nobody can even envision a more precise, a more direct, nor a more forceful expression and choice of words selected by a Perfect God than those shared here. Jesus could not be more clear, more precise or more specific. Nor SHOULD there be any way, one cannot correctly understand exactly what Christ is Teaching and COMMANDING to happen. But look at the response. The hardened heads and hearts choose to DENY God and abandon Him

 And verse [57] explains exactly what takes place in Catholic Holy Communion.

[60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”

And choose to leave Christ; to Deny God. …

Is what God has imposed upon Protestant lack of understanding sufficient to meet the crime. NO

! Even now Christ demonstrates his Love for them, and His desire to also be in a personal relationship with them. One OUGHT NOT ASSUME that because they think that they are in a personal relationship with Christ; that it is reciprocal. Maybe it is; maybe it is not?

[63] It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. This is the verse most often quoted by Protestants as the definitive evidence that Christ [having here denied “the flesh” HAS TO BE SPEAKING SYMBOLICALLY” Immediately we see God’s imposed lack of understanding taking effect.What Christ is trying to teach here; is that their [the defectors], understanding is partially correct. That His HUMAN BODY, the body and voice speaking to them is of NO Spiritual EFFECT and No Spiritual benefit.. WHAT they fail to understand, lacking Faith, Hope, and Love, is that Jesus KNOWING that he is but hours away from His Passion and death, and KNOWING full well that He will rise again is speaking of His SOON to be, Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity [Matt. 28:20], When Jesus promised to remain with us until the end of time. And NO, He does not spell it our; YET without doing so ALL those who actually DO possess Faith, Hope and Love; get and GOT the correct message. And they has been warned, even if they choose to not comprehend the message.

Matt.17: 9, 23 “And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Tell no one the vision, until the Son of man is raised from the dead.” .. and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day.” And they were greatly distressed.” … Matt.20: 19 “and deliver him to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day.”

Matt.26: 32 “But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee.”

[64] But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. [65] And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” [MEANING: That Only God grants  us TRUE Faith and it’s Fruits id Wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding.]

[66] After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.

[67 Jesus said to the twelve, Do you also wish to go away?” [68] Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; [69] and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

This final TEST, this last chance, proves beyond any “logical” doubts that Jesus Did MEAD EXACTLY what he said. When many denied and abandoned Him; He did NOT call them back, did NOT change His message, did NOT offer further clarification. What Christ DID do, and DID accomplish in so doing is turn to Peter and the Apostles and ask: Do YOU BELIEVE ME? Or Do you too wish to DENY Me?

[69] and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” … And that dear friends is the ONLY response God will accept; because it ALONE is the singular truth. AMEN! Christ HAS Spoken!

[1] This miracle termed “transubstantiation” is not evident

I’m sorry; but I though miracles were mysteries?

Not to make light of you’re point. But being “Under Grace” rather than just “the Law” [Rom. 6:14], permits God to expand along with our Understanding, what it is we are to understand through Faith. Heb.11: 1-3 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval. By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.” It is after All the very teaching of Jesus Christ Himself”

[2] It is based on a Tradition that entered the church around 300 AD

This is blindly WRONG information.

We have given evidence in the Bible, by the Early Fathers and from the Catholic Catechism [ provable in Secular History ], that this teaching was known, accepted and practiced if not immediately after Christ Death, then surely shortly after His Resurrection. It is BASED ON CHRIST PERSONAL TEACHING AND THE TESTIMONY OF GOD AND FIVE OTHER NEW TESTAMENT AUTHORS, NOT TRADITION; ALTHOUGH IT QUICKLY BECAME A KEY PART OF OUT TRADITION.

[3] It did not become a “dogma” until 1215 AD

FROM THE CATHOLIC Encyclopedia

“The persuasion of the Church from Apostolic times about the objective reality of these words of Christ is clear from many documents.”

Irenaeus

(Asia Minor, 140 – 202 AD), Tertullian (Rome, 160 – 220 AD), Cyprian (Carthage, 200 – 258 AD) are just a few of the earliest who attest to the objective reality of the words of Christ.

In the Church in Alexandria, Athanasius (293 – 373 AD) and Cyril (376 – 444 AD) equally attest to the literal meaning of the words of Christ at the Last Supper.

In the Church in Palestine, Cyril (Jerusalem, 315 – 387 AD) and Epiphanius (Salamis, 367 – 403 AD) also affirm in their teaching the same reality.

Unanimity is found across the universal church until the 11th century. Berengar (Tours, France, 1000 – 1088) was one of the first to deny the real presence by arguing that Christ is not physically present, but only symbolically.

The Council of Rome (a local council), 1079 AD, taught against Berengar that the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ.

By the 16th century, some Reformers

(excluding Luther) also taught that Christ’s presence in the Eucharist was only figurative or metaphorical. Since there were other opinions being taught as truth (figurative presence and metaphorical presence) a teaching authority had to be appealed to discern error from the truth. The way of the Church was to follow the model of Acts 15.

The Council of Trent (1545 – 1563)

defined the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the Eucharist as both the continuing sacrifice of Christ and a real sacrament. The institution of the Eucharist as sacrament was contained in the words “Do this in remembrance of me.”

The date of declared “Dogma” is significant ONLY in that it raises this believe that has always been held as true, believed, understood and practiced, to a position of indisputable truth. This was made necessary by the Protestant revolution, begun by Martin Luther which soon spread to other “I Know more or I know better” than God and the Catholic Church. Despite regional attacks throughout history , none had ever been serious enough, wide spread enough to require such an action, which has always been held as infallible truth, because God said so.

[4] It was around 1226 that catholics begin to bow down before the bread

Actually is on or far more like, much before 1171.

“On the occasion of the 750th anniversary of the first celebration of the feast of Corpus Christi, the Holy Father wrote a letter to Bishop Albert Houssiau of Liege, Belgium, successor of Bishop Robert of Thourotte, who in 1246 had established the feast which was later extended to the universal Church by Pope Urban IV. Here is a translation of the Pope’s Letter, which was dated 28 May and written in French.”

But even this is GREATLY misleading. Catholics right from the beginnings of the RCC, because it REALLY IS Jesus, consistently held the Blessed sacrament in Great honor and with the Highest esteem. That is the message and the cause for the rebuke of

1st. Cor. 11:26-29 and we see  CCC 1345; St. Justin Martyr  in 155 AD wrote about the Mass: …“He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.”

[5] the church having [now] accepted this tradition, tries to give the practice a strange interpretation based on

1st.Cor. 11:24-25 “ And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

Sufficient evidence of the Catholic Belief has been provided above

[6] This strange translation is that the catholic church made is that this bread and wine that Christ held in His hand somehow became his body and blood

To clarify our Teaching as catholics. We UNDERSTAND that the Eucharist is From God [the Father], Of God  [Jesus the Son], and caused By God [The Holy Spirit] using His priest. It is a series of miracles that ONLY humanity can benefit from as God is already Perfect.

[7] Because Christ was standing up in front of his disciples it is clear that in holding up the bread and wine and pronouncing the words that “this is My Body; this is My Blood” were intended to be understood [only] symbolically.

No, not at all. Christ made clear just what he did mean; it was understood by the Apostles, and it was put into practice as Jesus commanded after He died. Do not hold god to “time” which is a necessity of humanity; not of God for whom everything is in the “present.”

[8] There can be no doubt of this because he calls “it bread three times”, which he certainly would NOT have done if it really was not ONLY BREAD, but literally his body. {every time you eat this bread” …

1st. Cor. 11:26-28} “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. [PAUL’S Admonition] Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.” … A bit of “slight of hand” is attempted here. Only the first use is from the mouth of Jesus [who clearly] is implying that it is NOW His Body and no-longer just bread… which also is the rebuke Paul gives to those who are not giving IT proper respect and worship!

[9] he MUST have been speaking symbolically either when he was speaking of the bread or when speaking of his body

And this friends is the thinking of secular-humanistic logic; void of Faith, Hope, love and TRUTH.

[10] the question is NOT “should we interpret the passage literally… BUT which part are we to interpret literally and which part symbolically?”

DITTO above comments

[11] the only other choice is that it changed from bread to his body then back to bread again

Same lack of understanding repeated here

[12] we find a similar remark in

Mark 14:25 Truly, I say to you, I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

This takes place in a Passover meal, and Jesus here refers to the third Traditional cut of wine.

[13] Did he NOT MEAN that it is through him, we can enter into heaven, rather than his body which had been changed into blood.”

Actually it is NOT ONLY “through Him” IT IS Through Him, and With Him and In Him” which exactly why Jesus does it. Because Salvation IS through Jesus; the Eucharist is the GREATEST AID God can provide [conditionally] to lead us to all that is necessary to merit salvation.

[14] Even MORE important at the moment the miracle should occur; nothing happenings

Thomas here’s the deal I’ll make you:

YOU show me “grace” and then I’ll show you Jesus REALLY in the Eucharist [actually I intend to do this anyway].

[15] By way of comparison Christ changed water into wine  and it became WINE

! [Jn.28: 8-10]…Funny you should mention that. This miracle is different from every other Jesus reported miracle in that ALL of the others had a “Spiritual element”, a spiritual benefit. So what and where are the “spiritual element; the spiritual benefit here?” … To Be continued at the Last Supper!

Thomas I don’t want to make light of your point. Every other miracle had physical evidence, and you’re asking why not here? And the Answer is that it is at the Last Supper: REALLY CHRIST, thee miracle of miracles

 because it is not only done by God; IT IS GOD!

[16] now let us not loose sight of the true purpose of the “communion service”. Christ never ONCE told the disciples to offer up his body again; He told the TWICE to do this “in memory of me.”

Excuse me Brother Thomas;. “Communion service???”

NOT !!!!!! “ Mass” YES! With the Transubstaniatiated; REAL Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity: the COMPLETE JESUS CHRIST.

[17]  We honor Christ :by doing what he commands.

And the FACT that you cannot understand the truth is because you are denying God himself. Relying on self, on your OWN very human logic.

Sir.39: 16All things are the works of the Lord, for they are very good, and whatever he commands will be done in his time.”

Thomas I promised you in # 14 above that I would show you the evidence you seek. If you’re not too filled with self-importance and pride [the devils KEY to our souls], you’ll grasp it. If not, know that I am praying for you.

Eucharistic Miracles

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.therealpresence.org%2Feucharst%2Fmir%2Fa3.html

http://www.catholicdoors.com/misc/eucharisticmiracles.htm

Thomas they are so frequent that I invite YOU, to discover this truth; the physical truth you seek can be had.

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/engl_mir.htm

God Bless,

Pat 

The THIRD issue raised is “Can the sacrifice of Christ be Renewed”?

Thomas say’s “NO!”

And this agrees with what we Catholics Actually believe. Christ Sacrifice in the Most holy Eucharist is One and the SAME-IDENTIAL one that claimed Christ Life. We understand that Jesus can ONLY die once in His human nature; thus the Sacrifice is “RE-PRESENTED”; PRESENTED AGAIN AND AGAIN WHICH TOO IS A MIRACLE FROM GOD.

 

 

END OF SECOND SECTION # 2